Is that a drink pack on your back? From a aero point of view it would actually help if it were down the front of your skin suit vs. hurting by being on your back.
Yes - I have 2 backpacks with bladders - Camelbak and USWE. I had read that they were actually aero to have on your back. Is that not the case?
If down the front works better from an aero perspective, how does that work? Just drop the bladder down the front of the skin suit?
On the back is highly dependent on individual fit and the only way to know is to test.
Down the front is literally down the front of your skin suit.
Looking really slippery!
Got it. I’ll try down the front (bladder only) in my overnight test this weekend.
As I’m on a track bike with steady gearing, I can actually do a bit of a test to see which is more aero. Interested to try this out.
Thanks - trying my best to be slippery : )
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This is soooo cool. Please keep us updated as you do more testing
Thank you for the update, please keep 'em coming!
Thanks to everyone for your support!
I’m going to start a new thread for the actual 24-hour ride. Will continue to update this regarding the bars and other equipment : )
I did an 9-hour overnight test ride this weekend…
(This is a long post – sorry, but I definitely need some help from the forum and wanted to give you as much info as possible.)
It turns out that it was valuable on many levels – a lot of learnings. One of the key learnings (which I’ll focus on here due the aero-bar / tech scope of this thread) is the bounciness of the track. I’m planning to do my 24-hour ride on my track bike at the Kissena Velodrome on September 21-22, so I have some time to work out the tech but not a ton at this point. As such, turning to the forum for help. I have another test ride (during the day time) of 10-12 hours planned on September 9th, so I’m hoping to make tweaks before then.
Kissena is a great velodrome – but it’s certainly not a smoothest. It went through a renovation recently that resurfaced the track and smoothed out some of the bumps. That said, it’s still a fairly slow track – due to limited banking, asphalt-type surface, and bumpiness (which can disrupt pedal strokes and make your wheels leave the ground at high speeds… and it turns out causes brain-jarring bumps at a 24-hour speed). Turn 4 used to be bananas with its bumps, but those huge ones smoothed out due to the recent renovation/resurfacing. That said, there are still bumps throughout and especially in Turns 3-4.
I’ll get into this more in my other thread… however, as a summary of my stats, my watts were higher and I was a lot faster in my first 4 hours than in the latter part of my ride. Clearly, fatigue was a large part of that (as was under-fueling). Also, I am going to see my fitter tomorrow, and am likely going to have them raise the bars (as my lower back was definitely “creaky” to say the least after 4 hours, let alone the full duration of this weekend’s ride).
However, frankly a huge component of my watts and speed lowering in the latter half of the ride was due to the track’s bumps. My neck was killing me and my head was pounding. I am someone that is prone to getting headaches… but this was way, way more than that. The track’s bumps were rattling my brain around (kind of like small repetitive hits to a football player – and we now know that that can do).
In effect, the bumps reduced my potential “cognitive load” (i.e., ability to think) and made me wince every time I was heading into the bigger bumps. Consciously and subconsciously that made me want to go slower to reduce the impact of each bump, and as I friend of mine said “Going faster around this velodrome just brings those bumps up faster” – well said. On the positive, I did find some lines that allowed me to reduce those bumps a bit. However, the entire track is bumpy and my ability to hold my line got worse due to the headache and ability to think, as well as overall fatigue, as the night progressed. The issue here of course is that this was only an 8-hour test… and I had hoped to end feeling a bit fresher than I did – as the true ride will have 16 more hours.
To give you a sense for my watts/speed (as it may impact your technical advice)… first off, Pav has encouraged me to keep this ride to Z1 (which for me tops out at 135w). I did an average of 110w for my “Festive 500 in one go” last December, but that was a different beast as that was indoors on a trainer. I am definitely stronger than I was at that point with a higher FTP, but this is a different animal altogether.
Some stats from this weekend’s overnight test ride:
- In my first two hours, I was at 16.8mph, 85 RPM, and 100w (note there is significant variability in every lap as I’m going into the wind and then have the wind at my back on each lap, and there is variation in the straights and the curves). As such, I was mostly just pacing myself with cadence, and felt fit and solid.
- Then, in the second 2 hours, I was at 15.1mph, 82 cadence, and 89w. (Note this includes small breaks to pee!)
- That said, after that, in the latter half of my ride (~4 hours), my stats dropped significantly… 15.3mph and then 11.4/7mph by the end. Fatigue was a huge factor here as I did the overnight ride after a full day of activities, and as I’m still getting used to doing a long distance on my track bike without coasting, etc. That said, my feeling is that the biggest factor was the bumps and their impact…. As evidenced by the fact that I’m writing this post 24 hours after I finished the overnight ride and my head still is foggy/hurts a bit.
I’ll cover this in my other thread, however, I’m thinking about reducing my gearing from 48x19T to a larger cog for my upcoming test on Sept 9 – that will reduce my top-end speed but hopefully reduce the fatigue and make 24 hours more achievable. Anyway, keep these stats in mind when considering my below request and the right technical solution.
As such, turning to the forum for advice. I would like to figure out a way to reduce the impact of the bumps.
Ideas that I have:
1 – get wider tires and/or run lower tire pressure. Note: I am currently running a 77 deep section carbon front wheel (see below) and rear disc (see below). Recommended tire width on the front maxes out at 26 and the rear at 25. I’m doing 80 PSI. (I normally race at 80 PSI at Kissena to reduce the impact of bumps at high speed… as compared to racing at TTown which I do at 110-120 PSI.) I likely could go lower with the PSI, but suspect I’ll need to go significantly lower to have a real impact. Further, not sure it’s advisable to go well beyond the recommended tire width (or how wide I could fit with the clearance on my track bike)
2 – Get a tubeless front wheel and run significantly lower PSI. I suspect that I want to keep my rear disc as is and that changing out the front wheel will have more impact on the bumps and less impact on the aerodynamics. Further, I’m not racing in a UCI track race, so I realistically can go with any wheel up front (including quick release, etc.). This might be something to try, but frankly not sure going from 80 to 60 PSI (or lower) will make that much of a difference… when I did my 4 hour test, I let a bit of air out of the 80 PSI on each wheel (not sure how much) and that didn’t seem to make that much of a difference with the bumps (a qualitative test)
3 – Switch out the aero bars to drop bars, or go to drop bars with clip-on aero bars. Not a fan of this as I’ve already spent 1K on aero bars plus the cost of the fitting and install. However, that’s the sunk cost fallacy, so this is admittedly an option… but I do suspect that going to drop bars will slow me down considerably, even though bent arms will help me to absorb the bumps
https://shop.visiontechusa.com/en/type/aerobars/aerobars/triathlon-time-trial-track/metron-tfa
4 – Raise the aerobars by adding spacers or increasing angle of skis. My theory here is that if I’m more upright, that will help my neck and back have a bit more natural shock absorption. That said, I only have 20mm of spacers left, so would need to buy some more spacers – however, they seem to be out of stock on Vision’s website. Anticipating this, I did order some more spacers from an overseas shop a couple of weeks back but I’m currently suspicious of those actually making it to me from overseas.
5 – Be creative and go for some kind of front suspension. While this would definitely “look funny”, realistically speaking I may need to get creative. I need to avoid the hang-banging repetitive bumps in some way shape or form. And, like the recommendation to put the hydration bladder down the front of my skinsuit (which worked by the way – but not sure that really matters at my speeds!) that decidedly looks funny, I’m thinking that a front suspension on a track bike with aero bars could work (but also look funny) which I’m good with. Some options include the following:
5a – Explore a suspension stem. I’ve seen postings regarding Redshift online, but those would require me to change out my aero bars as the Vision bars that I have use an integrated stem.
5b – Install Specialized Future Shock. Not sure if this will work with my current fork or the Vision bars, but Future Shock does seem like something that could potentially work (if the parts actually fit together… and may have the side benefit of raising my aero bars.
5c – Go with a suspension fork. This would definitely look funny and likely screw up the aerodynamics. However, getting a suspension front fork would absorb the bumps. This would probably be overkill… but at this point I’m ok with overkill as my brain was doing too much banging around after 3-4 hours so I need to figure out a solution. Of course, would need to make sure that this would work with my frame and may require swapping out front wheel (not sure).
5d – Install a Lauf fork. This would look funny like the suspension fork, but funny in a different way… and probably wouldn’t be as bad from an aero perspective as the front suspension. That said, from reading online, it does appear that this has “some” stabilization benefits but not necessarily as much as a suspension fork (which may be ok given that I’m trying to deal with some repetitive bumps vs. gravel, etc.)
6 – Kill the idea of doing this on my track bike and just use my road bike. Not a fan of this idea as it means that I didn’t accomplish my goal. However, I do think bringing my road bike as a backup for the actual 24 is not a bad idea in case I need to make the switch. Bent arms likely would have a huge impact to the bumps vs. aero bars on a track bike – however, I suspect the bumps will be intense regardless.
Any advice you have for the bumps, would be greatly appreciated!!
I’m going to the local bike shop tomorrow and need to pull the trigger on something early in the week this week so I can get it installed before my Sept 9 test ride.
Thanks so much!
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Matt - great post - will respond directly too, but initial thoughts and comments.
As a mere mortal, but also a tech and new product nerd, I have come to learn at great physical and financial cost that as far as ultra’s go, no amount of tech will compensate for discomfort - physically or mentally. I think there are what I call LPMCU’s (Low Physical Mental Cost Upgrades) that make a lot of sense, but other that become far too costly, especially in Ultra’s. I see people set up for ultras that would be appropriate for a 10 mile TT.
Fundamentally, I would reconsider the use of a track bike as this is a limiter to your ability to maximise all things comfort. Tubeless and wide tires - at least 28mm will make a huge difference. I have used the Redshift stem with suspension and it is GOLD imho. On this very specific track surface I would recommend one. I have one you can use - but as you point out it means a shift to non-track bike.
In Ultra’s ai have found:
Having multiple gears and hand position options are critical. The ability to tap into variable positions, cadences etc is huge - it can be used to manage mental fatigue - you bargain with yourself ie, “Ok, for next 10 mins I am going to stand, pedal a big great with low cadence, occasionally drop my heal and stretch my hammies; then I’ll move to drops and up the cadence and hold a speed; then I will go into aerobars, then tops to recover a bit”, and so on. I think if you are more or less fixed to one position it will get tough. The surface sounds very challenging tbh.
As a fellow headache sufferer I TOTALLY get it - the neck pain plus headache is a crippling experience. Again, my experience is that in ultras your fundamental musculature and “system” ill show where it is weak. Keeping your head up for that long is hard. I started using the Ironneck to condition my neck muscles. Crucial for ultras imho. Having multiple positions will ease this and other things that show up. Having a drop bar plus clip on aero’s would help - fully appreciate this changes so much for you though; I would just say that at Hour [18] there is a good chance you will have a realization that ANY kind of comfort would be worth its weight in gold. For me, getting dehydrated = headache; keeping my head cool is key, too. I just ordered a product from The Feed that is like a headband that absorbs water and keepa you cool. I have also bought and tried various cooling strips and materials that help. My best and simplest cooling tip is to use those old-school tennis like wrist/sweat bands and pit ice cubes under them - cools a main artery well. Arm coolers doused in water were a godsend at 24 hour worlds in the desert, too. Weird one - but I also found that chewing gum relaxed any tension in my jaw muscles. Caffeine infused gum of course !
Sometimes I think we need to make all kit and bike decisions at the end of. 12 hour session when your exhausted body, aching neck and back will make better decisions than your fresh and rested mind making decisions while sipping coffee surfing all the best cycling sites !!!
I also ended up raising my aerobars with spacers you.
While the moat aero helmet may appeal now - the lightest will be better later. You could always switch mid ride or as needed if you have the option.
Other random thoughts; changing shoes and socks can be a real mind and body refresher.
More to come when we chat.
As always, great advice @WattsUp! And, yes, I agree with you regarding making decisions regarding gear 10-12 hours in. I ran the Lauf fork by someone as a solution, and he said it was “unnecessary” - in most circumstances, I would likely agree. However, after feeling the resulting head-pounding from the track after 4+ hours, I feel like I might have some fairly good anecdotal data amassed on this, so I’d call the Lauf fork very pricey as compared to reducing tire pressure, but if the tire pressure solution doesn’t work, then the Lauf may in fact be necessary ; )
I’m heading to my fitter / local bike shop tomorrow, and will see what they say. I agree with you that the track bike might be a limiter, but I haven’t even gotten to cadence being an issue - that will likely come at the 10-12 hour mark ; )
My current plan is as follows…
a) add some spacers to the bars to have a less aero position (I think there are a couple of spacers left in the original box… online seems to be sold out, but I’ve tried to source some to raise the bars even higher - we’ll see if those work when they arrive). I have a hunch that will help my head and neck issues, and…
b) try to find some tubeless wheels and get some wider tires (to the extent my track bike allows for that) and drop the pressure to 50-60 PSI to see if that helps
If the tire clearance is the limiter, I may switch from the Fuji Track Elite frameset to my Surly Steamroller, which fits 38 inch tires (per Surly’s website) and has the added advantage of having a water bottle cage. Admittedly, that still puts me in the track category, but with a steel stretched out frame. Will see what the fitter says.
My big push is to get this solved (or more solved) before my long ride on Sept 9th. If that ride doesn’t work out, I’ll have to figure out some other solutions.
Here is my $0.02 for what it is worth. Comfort is everything. Nothing kills average speed like the 0’s that come from time off the bike. With that said:
- Go for tyres as big as you can AND run a tyre pressure calculator to see what to run them at. Silca has a good one, SRAM’s is better but rather complex.
- raising the ski’s will help but switching to drop bars won’t really.
- having a back up road bike is a must - from all of the ultra track records I have seen, almost all of them have finished on a road going bike (TT or road) but with gears. Change in position even just for part of the time will make things easier.
- set a nutrition target and have one of your support team monitoring compliance.
Good luck and keep us posted.
@Kicikacsa Would love to hear about the “ultra track records” that you have seen. : ) Also, I’m interested to hear more about their strategy of switching up bikes!
@WattsUp and @Kicikacsa Thanks so much for your advice. I really like the look of my Fuji Elite and the nice deep section / disc wheels. It looks fast with those Vision bars. However, in reality, it isn’t comfortable over a long distance if my head is bumping around and pounding as a result. You both gave me great advice last time around, and as such I’m throwing out vanity. So, here’s what I worked out at my local bike shop today…
Switch from my Fuji Elite to Surly Steamroller. Advantages include: steel frame, more relaxed fit, ability to fit much larger / tubeless tires - something like 32-34 (we will see when they fit the tires on there) and low tire pressure, and regular spokes on the wheels. All of that should improve comfort considerably. I’m going to switch the aero bars on there too and put more spacers in. As such, I’m hoping that those changes will make a big difference from a comfort perspective - and enable me to avoid “the 0s” that @Kicikacsa mentions.
I pick up the updated bike and do a refit on Friday. Then, I’m going to try it out in a 10-12 hour ride on Monday Sept 9. If it doesn’t work then, that’s a whole other conversation - crossing my fingers!
Thanks for all of the advice! : )
Markoh Baloh has just set a bunch of records on an outdoor track 1-2 weeks ago. They were all set on a Spiegel TT bike.
When I lived in Geneva, there was a guy who came to our local cafe who had a bunch of long distance track records. He set them on the really short Geneva velodrome on a TT bike. He had his age group 6, 12 & 24 hour records and several of the intermediate ones like 200km etc. I watched a couple of his sessions there and he was definitely set up for comfort.
Thanks - great info. Truly appreciated!
Some great advice here. Thank you
Agree with James. This is gold. Thanks you
I was able to get my hands on some 32 tubeless wheels and have switched over to my Surley Steamroller (steel frame). Hoping that significantly improves things in tomorrow’s 10-12 hour test ride.
Extra stack spacers and cups still arriving this week. (Cups were a nice recommendation from @WattsUp.) They will I think make things a ton better. Have a shorter 4 hour ride planned for Friday. Hoping that gets all my equipment fully sorted for my 9/21-22 ride.
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